Ahead of the release of her soundtrack for Ryûsuke Hamaguchi’s new film Evil Does Not Exist, Japanese musician Eiko Ishibashi talks to Ilia Rogatchevski about influential composer director partnerships and her own approaches to scoring film. Photo: Eiko Ishibashi in Hokuto, Japan, October 2018, The Wire 418 by Mayumi Hosokura
Evil Does Not Exist, Ryûsuke Hamaguchi’s award winning meditation on nature and our role in its custodianship, originated from a collaborative music led project with the Japanese composer Eiko Ishibashi. Requiring visuals for a live performance, Ishibashi presented the director with a few demos of electronic compositions. The result was the short silent film Gift that later developed into a feature length production.
Their previous collaboration Drive My Car – an adaptation of Haruki Murakami’s short story about a widowed actor – engages in the patient unfolding of human drama by bridging the sparse dialogue and rich cinematography with Ishibashi’s jazz infused motifs. Ishibashi won the Best Original Music accolade at the Asian Film Awards for both soundtracks, in 2024 and 2023 respectively. So integral is the music that it’s difficult to imagine the visuals of either film being paired with alternative scores.
The Wire asked Ishibashi to provide a list of composer-director partnerships that she considers influential. We used some of the names on that list as starting points for our conversation. Special thanks to Jim O’Rourke for interpreting.
Ilia Rogatchevski: Film was important for you when you were growing up. Were there any soundtracks that influenced the way you think about scoring for film now?
Eiko Ishibashi: At a young age, the ones that really stuck out for me were John Barry’s scores for Midnight Cowboy (1969) and Walkabout (1971). And also Jack Nitzsche’s score for One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest (1975).
What was it about Jack Nitzsche’s soundtrack that you found so interesting?
It wasn’t anything direct like wanting to use those instruments or anything like that. It was more the way that his music had an attitude towards what the content of the film was. It’s almost coming in at an angle. It’s not necessarily directly connected.
You’ve talked before about how Nitzsche’s music opens up American life, nature and history. David Lynch and Angelo Badalamenti also focus a lot on American life – its seedy underbelly. What is it about their work that attracts you?
Strangely enough, the thing of theirs that I was most moved by was the video of Badalamenti explaining how he wrote the theme for Twin Peaks. I was profoundly moved by that.
You’ve also mentioned Ennio Morricone being an influence and his work is closely associated with the grandeur of the American landscape. You live in the Yamanashi Prefecture and Evil Does Not Exist was filmed in the area. For Drive My Car, Ryûsuke Hamaguchi also asked that your music “be like a landscape”. Do your rural surroundings impact how you write or think about developing a narrative idea through sound?
Maybe more so than the visual element of living here, it’s the convenience of things being much quieter. The fact that it’s quiet is probably more influential than anything about the area in terms of what it does visually. There’s not the constant roar of the city like when I lived in Tokyo.
What do you find interesting about the partnership of Alan Pakula and Michael Small? You previously described Small’s work as having “distance”. What do you mean by this within the context of their work together?
Distance doesn’t mean that it’s disconnected. It means more that it’s acting like a counterpoint to the images and the editing as opposed to highlighting something in the image or something that’s happening in the narrative. It’s more like another layer to the film. It has almost a physical distance from what’s happening.
What I like about Michael Small’s music is the degree to which he builds suspense with minimal means, like with the main theme for The Parallax View (1974) for example.
There are two elements to Michael Small’s music that I’m interested in. The first is that his music seems to be referring to things that are beyond the frame of the image. The second… you kind of have to see The Parallax View to understand this. Warren Beatty is a reporter who is looking into the assassination of a politician. He stumbles upon this CIA-like group that basically tries to find people to turn into assassins or patsies.
He wriggles his way into this programme and, at one point, he is taken into a room to watch a film that’s going to be introducing the company. In that scene, we see Warren Beatty watching the film but then the film that he’s watching takes up the whole screen. There is music in that film, which is Michael Small’s music. The film he’s watching becomes the film that you’re watching. The music then changes what its purpose is. I was very impressed with that intelligence in his music and by how he dealt with that situation. Most composers wouldn’t think about that extra element.
The piano leading the theme from Klute (1971) is another example of tension being built up with relatively few elements. The piano is your main instrument and you learnt it at a young age. Is it always the first place you go to for generating ideas or do you also use more unorthodox approaches when working for film?
Even if I take another approach, I usually have to use the keyboard. Sometimes, it starts on the piano but, for instance, the score for the strings on Evil Does Not Exist had to be recorded first using the keyboard so that the sheet music could be created.
You’re also a drummer. How important is rhythm when you’re thinking about the sequential structure of moving images?
For instance, with Drive My Car, the rhythm came first – finding the right rhythm for the image. The music kind of came from that.
You’ve previously referred to Hamaguchi’s cinematic style as being musical. I like that framing. Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
Hamaguchi is very deliberate about the sounds he uses in the films: the sound of a car, the sound of a door. Especially the recording quality of the actors and the rhythms of the dialogue that he writes for them. It’s almost like there’s already a structure that the music can hang on to because there are definite rhythms and colours to the sounds in his films.
He’s very particular about the sound mix. That in itself already starts to conjure ideas for how the music can fit. Lots of films don’t have a rhythm outside of certain cutting [editing] rhythms. His early documentary trilogy about Fukushima and the Tōhoku earthquake is just people talking, but it has these amazing rhythms to it – the silence and speaking.
What strikes me about your work with Hamaguchi is how sparingly the music is used. In Drive My Car there is often no music at all and in Evil Does Not Exist it gets cut unexpectedly, and very deliberately, for dramatic effect. Do you have any influence over how your compositions are used in the final edit?
Hamaguchi has a very strong idea of where he wants the music to be and where it should end. I do go to the final mixes with him but I generally trust his ideas for how he places the music.
Let’s get back to the list. What about the work of Hiroshi Teshigahara and Tōru Takemitsu? Is it the waltz from The Face Of Another (1966) that you had in mind?
The music in Japanese films – now and for a long time – is always heartwarming and guides the audience along. I was really struck by how dry and almost aggressive the music in The Face Of Another is to the audience. It’s very jarring, not lulling at all. It’s very unusual for Japanese films.
Have you seen Teshigahara’s documentary Antonio Gaudí (1984)?
No.
The film is almost without any dialogue and centres on Gaudí’s architecture. It’s a point of view tour of his buildings and very much driven by Takemitsu’s score. I see a similar impressionistic approach in your work, too.
My work is more about wanting to avoid explaining what’s in the image and instead trying to find the spot that’s overlooked, or something that isn’t an important part of what’s happening. Finding that can usually guide me more. Part of it is purposefully not wanting to explain the image, so avoiding that helps.
What about the partnership of Rainer Werner Fassbinder and Peer Raben?
With Peer Raben and Fassbinder – we don’t actually know if Raben chose where to put the music but, for instance, in a typical Fassbinder film a horrible character will go to sleep and, all of a sudden, a light-hearted romantic lullaby starts. It’s that kind of combination that creates something between irony and cynicism that I like very much in their work together. The audience has to think all the time to understand what the meaning of the musical combination is.
You’ve written and arranged music for the Fassbinder play Garbage, The City & Death. Was this juxtaposition something you were channelling for that project?
In the script for the play it actually says what music to use. Daniel Schmid had made a film of that play (Shadow Of Angels, 1976) and Peer Raben had done music for it. When the play was done in Japan [in 2013], we also used Peer Raben’s music. Only one of my original compositions was used.
Last on the list are Peter Greenaway and Michael Nyman. Nyman has a flair for the baroque. I’m thinking in particular about The Cook, The Thief, The Wife And Her Lover (1989), the score for which is opulent, decadent even. Is this what you were thinking too or is there another element of Nyman’s music that influences you?
In this case, it’s a little bit special because Greenaway is taking advantage of Nyman a little bit. All of Greenaway’s films are very angry, but using Nyman’s apparently elegant music in his films creates an incredible tension between the anger going on in the script and image. It creates this veneer, especially in relation to England, where you see its history and how the upper class continues to have its façade. It’s a very striking combination at work.
Ryusuke Hamaguchi’s Evil Does Not Exist is in cinemas now. Eiko Ishibashi’s soundtrack is released by Drag City.
Wire subscribers can read James Hadfield’s 2018 interview with Eiko Ishibashi and Jim O’Rourke in The Wire 418 online via the digital library of back issues.
Ilia Rogatchevski
Originally published by The Wire, April 2024